Friday, June 17, 2011
On the "Logic" of Disbelief
• How can anyone claim to be an Atheist - claim to know there is not a God while denying the believers' claim to know there is...?
• Why do the disbelievers pretend that the bad responses are the "Call?" Isn't the real question not whether the results were bad, but "is it - the Call - true" (C. S. Lewis)? Hmmm... do they set the same standards for themselves? Do the general responses to life of disbelievers count as reflecting badly on disbelief?
• And why do disbelievers ignore the good responses? ...How does one dismiss what propels people to sacrifice their time, their worldly goods, their comfort, even their lives for others? ...what makes humans able to do seemingly miraculous things (E.G. Mother Teresa)? How can anyone dismiss what has evoked such extraordinary generosity? And what about the art/literature produced by believers - such creativity? Do the disbelievers actually think they understand religious culture if they don't study religion?????
• Why do any disbelievers equate its extreme side with every faith, especially the Muslim? Surely it's not because this sells their books or makes arguing their side easier... either of which would be dishonest if not actually malfeasing ....But wait... what can honesty or honor possibly mean if there is no God...? Where actually is the "bottom line" if everyone decides for themselves about morality? Nietzsche understood this horror, but does this era's crop of disbelievers understand at all?
• Why won’t doubters admit the scientific advances that had their genesis in religion and which now point so strongly to a theistic explanation for life? And how about the "Big Bang" theory which was first described by St. Augustine of Hippo early in the 5th Century, then formally proposed by a 20th Century Jesuit, and which now is the only space which makes life possible. And where did the original ingredients of the Big Bang come from anyway - LET ALONE LIFE (oh... from non-life… clearly...)? Why has there never been a single signal of any sort from outer space if life can just appear? And why are there so many scientist-believers? How can there be any if disbelief is so logical? And where is evolution headed - what/where is its end? I wonder why most historians now teach that the dichotomy between science and religion is: a) A product of the 20th Century, and B) wildly exaggerated...on BOTH sides?
* How is it that disbelievers have such stringent requirements, especially about timing, for faith and for God (...both of which they deny), which requirements are then declared as having been unmet? Why should it not be that real faith is a very long term, joint enterprise of people with God, and that having depicted the timing in one of the creation stories naively by today's standards but which nonetheless resulted in the World history-changing acceptance of a Sabbath, and depicted the timing for the Second Coming obscurely - unless, of course it was the Resurrection, in which case everything said about it in the Bible is correct?? 2nd coming??... HEY... maybe we're ahead? Perhaps the real timing actually is what we are observing? Perhaps we have a long wait ahead still for everyone in this joint enterprise...?
* And speaking of the "Resurrection": How many events in ancient history have a first hand account of them, in this case repeated letters describing an encounter with someone after his crucifixion by the one who had been up to that moment the mortal enemy of his followers (Saul/Paul), and who AFTER THE ENCOUNTER BECAME THE APOSTLE TO THE WHOLE NON-JEWISH WORLD AND WILLINGLY DIED FOR HIS BELIEF? And how do you explain that the followers of Jesus, unlike any of the other sets of followers of the many other prophets/zealots of that period, went from being terrified and in hiding to coming out even in the face of mortal danger to themselves and converted people all over the known World with their story of this Resurrection and the example of their amazingly changed lives?
• How can there not be something "other"… if every person who ever lived has felt the urge to believe? How can such consistency be explained by randomness?
* How do they explain the existence and importance to this day (~4,000 years later) of the Jews, one of the tiniest, most disadvantaged peoples ever to appear on Earth - who had nothing but their God?
* And explain their God-given Sabbath - the first ever proclamation of the absolute equality of every human being - the equal requirement for every living person (…male/female…slave/free) that they - being equally God's creation - observe the Sabbath.
• How is disbelief, just as with belief, not a preference? ...not something cultivated?
• How is belief weakness when belief requires sacrifice and ongoing effort and disbelief nothing at all - least of all consistency?
• If the problem of evil is the greatest one for believers, how is the problem of good not fatal for disbelief?
• How can anyone, especially every doubter, not study religion in depth? How can they not seek to understand deeply that subject on which more thought and effort and creativity have been expended than on any other in the history of the World? ...on that which has had more influence by far? Even if there isn’t a God, isn't finding out all you can about belief nonetheless essential for your educational and cultural credibility, and if there is a God, then isn't finding out about belief of supreme importance?
* For all those who can admit that you have felt something other "out there" and especially those who think of yourselves as spiritual, what you are missing by not being part of a religious practice is exactly this: No one with whom to debate the specifics; no reminder of the bottom line; no call to learn more; no extra consolation; and no Company along The Way.
* And, finally, why don’t the doubter/disbelievers try to find out from people who are walking-the-walk why they do it? The real answer is, actually, that once you’ve truly heard the Call you can’t not do it. But, for the disbelievers, let me include some of my own story in case it might help:
I was raised quite strictly in the Church, got confirmed which I took very seriously, and when I could see an opportunity to serve I did. I worked with the poor and the mentally ill, brought my children to Church, took every chance I could to do Bible study, and gave alms – the more usual stuff. Then I encountered some evangelists and became willing for the first time to talk about my faith and to encourage (not pressure) others to do so too – a big, big step forward for one of “God’s frozen people” (a 50’s Episcopalian). This enlarged my view of what I was meant to do incredibly. Now I continue to study and meet with other believers, but I also pray far more, give away everything I possibly can, and evangelize, and I serve others, especially the poor, and I have never been more sure or contented. I’m not, by the way, doing this for a ticket to Heaven, in which I have very little interest since I cannot know what it is ...only have faith. My walk is not about personal credits for the afterlife but about living the life I was meant to in God’s kingdom here on Earth and about never being alone. To quote St. Teresa of Avila: "the feeling remains that God is on the journey too."
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Hi Chrissy,
ReplyDeleteI just came across your blog and thought you might be interested to hear an atheist's perspective on your thoughts here, so I'm going to run through some of these points.
First, let me say that I speak for myself, and other atheists may not agree with everything I say.
1. On how atheists can claim to know there is no god and deny theists' claim to know there is--
Technically speaking, I do not "know" there is no god. I know that there is almost certainly no god. I know that there is no reason to believe there is a god. I'm sure you're familiar with Russel's teapot. If I claim to know that the universe is governed by an invisible pink unicorn, who are you to deny my claim to know that? Well, you can ask me for evidence, and if I have none, you can dismiss my claim, because the burden of evidence is on the person making the positive claim.
How can you claim to know there is one god, while denying a Hindu's claim to know that there are many? You disbelieve in many gods, Chrissy, I just disbelieve in all them and yours, too.
continued:
ReplyDelete2. I'm not completely sure of what you mean by "bad responses" and "Call." Are you talking about people who do evil in the name of religion? I won't use evil done in the name of religion as evidence against religion; Mother Theresa's god is just as imaginary as a jihadist's god. Now, if you want to talk about whether religion has had a net positive or negative effect on the world, that's another discussion. But I'm not really interested in arguing that.
3. Just as evil done in the name of religion is not evidence against it, good done in its name is not evidence for religion. Empathy and altruism can inspire people to sacrifice all those things for others just fine without any god. Religion's got no monopoly on creativity, either. Why is it hard to believe that people sometimes devote themselves to things that aren't true?
4. Well, it is easier to dismiss the religion of a suicide bomber than that of those who do good, I'll grant you that. And I would encourage other atheists not to lean on this crutch too much; the argument for God's nonexistence doesn't rest on theists doing evil.
And now you attack the potential for an atheist to be moral. You offend me personally. Honesty and honor can mean as much for an atheist as any theist. To suggest otherwise is discriminatory, prejudiced, and hateful, and I'd expect a self-proclaimed "Knee-Jerk Liberal Union Democrat" not to fall into that sort of thing.
If you genuinely don't understand how an atheist can have morals, we can talk about humanism, etc. But I don't think the idea is worth acknowledging.
5. Sure, historically many scientific advancements came from religious people. So what? It's perfectly possible for smart people to be wrong about somethings and right about others. In 1998, 72% of members of the National Academy of Sciences were atheists, 21% were agnostics, and only 7% believed in God (Larson and Witham, 1998 "Leading Scientists Still Reject God").
As far as anything pointing to a theist origin of life, I'd love to hear about what you're referring to--I haven't seen it.
6. There's not much here for me to respond to. If you're talking about standards for evidence, here's my standard: the claim has to be the simplest way to explain all (or most of) the data. Evolution is the simplest way to explain biology. God is not the simplest way to explain anything observable.
7. There are plenty of historical accounts of things that never happened (Trojan War, for instance). If the bible's account of Jesus is evidence for his divinity, my spiderman comic book is evidence for mutant super power-granting spiders.
8. People are wrong about things all the time. People are indoctrinated with the idea of religion when they are young and can't challenge ideas.
I am now tired. I could go on, but that's all I've got tonight. I'm happy to hear any responses you've got.
-Cwyeoman
Dear Cwyeoman,
ReplyDeleteI am very grateful for any response. So thank you for caring enough to reply in writing.
I will reply to your specifics in a bit, but I would first like to suggest that you should, as I said in the blog, really delve into the Bible. You will be amazed at its historical and cultural importance – at how astonishingly egalitarian it is. Do you care where the idea of equality came from? The Bible is, in fact, unique in the World for its many thousand years ago declaration that we – male and female – were created in God’s image, and that every being on Earth has to observe the Sabbath – male and female, slave and free, animals – actually NOT WORK. This isn’t just the priesthood – it is the whole Earth. Then there is St. Paul, who says some pretty offensive things about behavior (in order to help keep the “Followers of the Way” alive, by the way), nonetheless has as his two “right–hand men,” Priscilla and Phoebe. And Paul reminds us that there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, which is echoed in the Synoptic Gospels, and then there is Jesus, with his significant female followers (or maybe even slightly more honored). Do you know the Mary-Martha story in which Jesus says that Mary, who is acting like one of his disciples, has “chosen the better part.” This is as opposed to Martha who is in the kitchen complaining about Mary, and there is considerably more, of course, but this is just to remind you of the Bible’s historical significance.
May I also suggest reading the Marcus Borg (Liberal) – N.T. Wright (Conservative) small book called, “The Meaning of Jesus,” and the wonderful one about each of our spirituality called, “Falling Upward?” I am especially interested in the Falling Upward one because I am facing the end of my life and want to be as forward looking and prepared as I possibly can.
Now for your specific comments: About knowing or not knowing there is a God. I was merely pointing out the assumption that is by definition the Atheist’s one, which is that there is no God. Be a disbeliever just as I am a believer and feel that you know, as surely as I feel, the opposite about God, but there is no way to prove either side except in our hearts and minds.
I made no mention of whether or not I honored other faiths so that was unfair. I am an Episcopalian, and we are, I would claim, one of the most well-informed, tolerant, and appreciative of other faiths religion I know of. How much do you know about (meaning… have studied) the Abrahamic faiths: Judaism? the Muslim faith? Christianity? I have studied them all – especially Judaism, the faith which is our source. We Christians have three Gods, by the way – three in one, admittedly, and we are constantly chided for this. We see these different aspects of the Godhead as being both separate and integrated so ours/mine would hardly be likely to disdain other, multiple-God, faiths. However, if you are also implying that I don’t believe in the Greek or Roman pantheon of gods – or any faith where the gods are just reflections of human qualities, you would be absolutely correct. They constituted a collection of some of the least desirable of human qualities – not at all God-like. Power and rule and aggrandizement are NOT what God is about.
End First Reply
Power and rule and aggrandizement are NOT what God is about:
DeleteReply to your 2nd Comment:
This discussion is pointless, I’m afraid, if you don’t even understand what “call” means. You seem to have been completely detached from the practice of any faith pretty much all along and are therefore clueless about what it comprehends and, may I say, about much of history and culture. Nor do you seem even remotely interested in studying not only what your opposition believes but what has constituted the bulk of history and still does. This lack makes real debating fruitless.
How is it unfair and/or insulting to say that morality can’t have any objective meaning if everyone is deciding for himself/herself what is moral? It’s a truism. Read Nietzsche (an atheist) and his warning about this. The young man who shot all those people at the school in Connecticut undoubtedly thought he should do it. So why is his morality not the relevant one? There has to be some “other” basis for morality than our own individual understandings and feelings. Of course there are good atheists, but my definition of “good” is a general - a religious – one. It is one that has preoccupied the finest minds and souls of the World from way back when.
Atheism didn’t exist before the 17th Century. Did you know that? Have you heard about the “Science and Religion” course? This is one of the “great courses” and should be studied by everyone. (www.thegreatcourses.com). It would give you some perspective at least. Sincerely, Chrissy